• Has anyone proven with math that natural selection is non-random?

    WJMurray

    I've recently been having a rather lengthy debate in the MSN "Nature VS God" forums about whether or not I.D. has conducted any "real" scientific research. During the course of this debate he stated that no one has constructed any significant statistical models about any particular, claimed evolutionary pathways using mutation and natural selection. Of course, I immediately turned this back and asked if no one has done that, then how can anyone claim it works, much less call it a "fact"?

    More importantly, it got me to thinking about natural selection and how proponents of Neo-Darwinism claim it is a "non-chance" fitness filter; has anyone ever challenged them to produce a proof that demonstrates that natural selection is, in fact, "non-chance" or "non-random" - that it is a "fitness filter" at all?

    For all I can tell, "natural selection" seems to me to be totally random if one figured in all the potential internal and external factors that "decide" if a genetic change survives; how can they claim it to be non-random, if they've never mathematically modeled it? How do they know if "fitness" is even a meaningful commodity in evolution, if there is no algorithm that can predict what would be a "more fit" genetic expression in any given scenario?

    For all they know, sequences of genetic success aren't based on natural selection at all, but rather on some kind of common teleological process that is deliberately searching for and filling an evolutionary niche; this could be an inherent commodity of all life and coded for in all DNA. I mean, if RNAcan "accidentally" figure out how to self-replicate, and we know humans can plan and design outcomes, why is it such a stretch to think that DNA itself doesn't have such a teleological mechanism?

    Couldn't it also be that DNA "deliberately" mutates itself (or, at least, that's how it would appear to us) to accomplish evolutionary goals?

    --

    www.design249.com
    www.onlinefantasyart.com
    www.fantasycoloringbooks.com



    Comment viewing options

    Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
    eric
    Non-random mutation; Understanding natural selection

    WJMurray: "Couldn't it also be that DNA "deliberately" mutates itself (or, at least, that's how it would appear to us) to accomplish evolutionary goals?"

    Yes, and it is not just a hypothetical possibility. See the comment by crevo at 3/18/2008 11:58:00 AM responding to a post at evolutionary biologist Dr. Allen MacNeil's blog.

    The link he mentions did not make it, but he is referring to the collection of examples summarized at this post:
    Tuning Knobs and Other Features of the Genome

    If you are interest in the additional Barry Hall example he also mentions (where E.coli modifies its own genome in useful ways), see Transposable elements as activators of cryptic genes in E. coli

    Regarding the natural selection aspect of your question, I would suggest it is important to clarify meanings and distinguish issues.

    When evolutionists claim that natural selection is not random, they are not making the grand claim that natural selection drives toward a goal. In fact, evolutionary biologists who are accurate in how they use the term will acknowledge that natural selection is not even an "engine of evolution" -- it doesn't make or create anything at all. It acts as a preservative for features related to reproductive success. That is it.

    To see this clearly, I have seen no better source than the evolutionary biologist mentioned above, Dr. Allen MacNeil. Though he is not the best source regarding understanding ID, he is a gentleman and scholar who is quite knowledgeable about evolutionary biology.

    AM: "As John Endler pointed out in "Natural Selection in the Wild" (1986), natural selection is NOT a causitive force of innovation at all. Rather, it is an outcome brought about by four processes: variation, inheritance, fecundity, and differential reproductive success."
    See more here

    AM: "As I have alread pointed out in an earlier post, the real creative factor in evolution isn't natural selection per se, it's the source(s) of variation that natural selection "preserves" from generation to generation."
    The "earlier post" is What is the "engine" of evolution?

    When natural selection is understood accurately, the modest claim that it is non-random essentially means that some heritable variations do improve the odds of leaving offspring while others reduce the odds (e.g. by leading to sterility, failure to get a mate, or to early death). The outcome (what worked and what didn't) depends upon the context.

    Natural preservation/selection works for the survival of the reproductively fittest. The problem for evolution is about the weakness of the engines of variation to explain the arrival of fundamentally different designs. I don't see a big problem with natural selection/preservation.



    Patrick
    Stabilizing and Directional and Diversifying Selection

    Allen MacNeill (and other biologists) actually tries to break natural selection into several different “neat” categories to fit the evidence that is consistently found in the fossil record (very sudden appearance, then rapid diversity, then slow decline in diversity over periods of time.) Let me explain.

    All naturally occurring populations exhibit what Fisher called continuous variation. That is, a range of variation in various traits that, when plotted in Cartesian coordinates, approximates a normal distribution (bell-shaped curve). In a trait that exhibits continuous variation, most of the individuals exhibit the trait at a value reasonably close to the mean, with a relatively small number of individuals exhibiting relatively large or relatively small values for that trait.

    An example is height in humans, which is often illustrated in introductory biology texts with a group of students arranged along a football sideline in order of height. There are a few very short and a few very tall people, but the vast majority form a bulge in the middle of the curve. As noted by Eric that major problem is with the "engines of variation".

    Given a population that exhibits continuous variation for a trait, it is claimed that there are three different patterns of natural selection that can result:

    Stabilizing selection, in which individuals from both extreme “tails” of the normal distribution are not preserved over time (i.e. they do not have as many offspring that survive to reproduction), compared with those in the middle bulge of the curve. Under such conditions, the mean value for the trait does not change over time (hence the term “stabilizing selection”). In our example of height, stabilizing selection would be the result if individuals of average height had the most surviving and reproducing offspring (assuming that height is heritable from parents to offspring, of course).

    Directional selection, in which individuals from one (but not the other) extreme “tail” of the normal distribution are not preserved over time (i.e. they do not have as many offspring that survive to reproduction), compared with those in the middle bulge of the curve. Under such conditions, the mean value for the trait changes over time, shifting toward the tail of the curve that includes the surviving individuals (hence the term “directional selection”). An example would be a population on an island all becoming pygmies over time.

    Diversifying selection, in which individuals from the middle of the range (but not either extreme “tail”) of the normal distribution are not preserved over time (i.e. they do not have as many offspring that survive to reproduction), compared with those at the extreme tails of the curve. Under such conditions, the mean value splits and becomes bimodal, with two new mean values increasing in frequency, and the old mean value disappearing. This process would eventually (depending on the intensity of selection) produce two phenotypically different populations where one had previously existed (hence the term “diversifying selection”).

    Thus, with these different versions of natural selection Darwinism becomes unfalsifiable. For they can explain both rapid diversification of a fossil type and then can explain lack of diversity of fossil type thereafter. He can explain anything he wants in the fossil record whenever he wants his theory to fit the evidence. i.e. his “new” theory has greater weight than the evidence has to falsify it.

    Now many ID proponents don’t dispute the notion of stabilizing selection. They dispute the notion that there’s any kind of selection other than stabilizing selection. This does not mean that it does not happen per se (think finch beaks) but that it's not special enough that should not warrant a separate categorization. Or at least that directional selection is exceedingly rare and can only operate under limited conditions/environments and thus for a very short amount of time (or at least it better be short lived...directional selection tends to decimate a population as was seen with the finches). Personally I'm fine with him making these distinctions since they've only been shown to be capable of trivial changes.

    Now as I've pointed out before the major issue is that natural selection is essentially a funnel, and it must be balanced in order to produce results. I've already belabored this point in the blog post GA Chess. It must also be balanced long enough that the trait becomes fixated. The problem with the finch example is that once the environment changes back to normal the finch population also reverts back to being a mixed population. As in, the changes purportedly funneled by directional selection don't stick (they are not fixated). Some Darwinists like to say that in order for such changes to fixate that the environment must be permanently altered as well. Well...in the finches case it's apparent by their dwindling numbers that this would likely cause extinction of that population within that environment. Even if they did survive and the trait did fixate within the population it's unknown whether the finches would permanently lose the ability to produce beaks of different sizes if the environment changed once again far off into the future.

    A Darwinist put it this way: "sufficient conditions for long-term improvement [and fixation, I might add] to be likely are quite complicated." Tell me about it... Here's an example with flying squirrels, which have numerous balanced morphological changes in order to properly glide.

    Dawkins speculated that falling from trees provided the environmental funnel. How many squirrels died jumping out of trees before some of them found out that they were lucky enough to have mutant extra skin along with modifications to the spine and ligaments in order to allow them to glide? How many squirrels have to fall to their deaths for such a change to become fixated in the population? Do we have any data at all on deaths caused by falls or is it all speculation? The automatic tendon locking mechanisms of such creatures should keep most of the corpses of natural deaths up in the trees I would imagine. What environment would provide this selective pressure? Unfortunately for such speculations, ordinary squirrels have been observed to fall from great heights with little or no injury. So are we now forced to hypothesize a limited set of environments which may include trees that would regularly cause death by falling?

    The reason I ask all this is because evolutionary biology claims to have all this predictive power, so answering these questions should be easy. If this particular hypothesis (death by falling providing the environmental pressure) does not match reality what scenario is plausible? After all, there needs to some sort of plausible scenario since these traits are shared in divergent species and are supposed to be the result of convergent evolution.

    The recent article HOW TO MAKE A FLYING SQUIRREL: GLAUCOMYS ANATOMY IN PHYLOGENETIC PERSPECTIVE (2007) makes the suggestion that since leaping distance scales with size that a smaller species would benefit more from gliding. So perhaps the selective pressure would be a smaller species competing with a larger species? They also briefly mention that evolving from a ground-based ancestor would be unlikely, presumably because of the low positive selective pressure for gliding. But again, we're back to the problem of needing regular directional selection in order to fixate these changes in the population. Also, in order for these changes to be beneficial in the first place they have to be balanced (look up that article to see just how balanced). And if they're not balanced they're unlikely to provide much benefit (it's neutral) and thus will be lost.

    Having said all that, in general I don’t see an issue with unguided Darwinian mechanisms being capable of making these particular changes considering their relative simplicity and apparent modularity (then again, it may be front-loading). I just think it disconcerting that the focus of that recent article–which should represent the latest findings on this subject–seemed to be on making comparisons between samples. Darwinian mechanisms as the source of evolution were generally assumed to function, without any evidence of this being the case. The problems related to natural selection were never addressed. This is ironic since the article is entitled “HOW To Make a Flying Squirrel”.

    Now Darwinists always start with the assumption of simplicity giving rise to higher complexity. Some ID proponents present this alternate scenario: What if ALL of the original squirrels could glide? After all, it's far easier to suffer a deleterious mutation, and the survival benefit from this particular feature is negligible in most circumstances. The same could be said of the bat, where some species have echolocation and others do not. What if the original bat had echolocation and then over time some divergent lines lost it? Now this scenario is compatible with YEC/OEC and front-loading hypotheses where the change program terminates at the final form and then deletions occur.

    Another issue is that often times Darwinists are dealing with mathematical models. It is claimed that fitness should not be measured by actual success (or actually, lifetime reproductive success, LRS). Instead, fitness should be the mathematical expectation of LRS in the environment. So it's possible that Darwinism may "work" in the mathematical models but the models do not match reality.

    Needless to say, I'm not sure if all this makes the issue ever more confusing.



    eric
    Natural Selection and Endler's Reformulation

    Patrick,
    A very informative post. This statement especially caught my eye:

    "It is claimed that fitness should not be measured by actual success (or actually, lifetime reproductive success, LRS). Instead, fitness should be the mathematical expectation of LRS in the environment."

    There are reasons to suspect that even employing mathematical models would not help. Models depend on empirical data and definitions. GIGO: Garbage In Garbage Out.

    How to define "fitness" and "natural selection" has been a horrible problem for Darwinists. Most attempts have been fatally flawed, leading to circularity and tautological statements. Since "fitness" must be defined in terms of survival and reproduction, how can it be made to mean anything more than "The survivors survive" or "Those that leave the most offspring leave the most offspring"?

    This has created so much difficulty over the years that "the tautology problem" is now recognized by that name.

    Paul Nelson wrote a review article Unfit for Survival, The Fatal Flaws of Natural Selection. This first appeared in a special July/August 1999 issue of Touchstone magazine that included a baker's dozen of articles related to Intelligent Design. Those articles, plus one more and an introduction, were later reprinted as the book Signs of Intelligence; Understanding Intelligent Design, edited by William Dembski and James Kushiner (description at ARN).

    Here are a few comments about and a few excerpts from the Paul Nelson article.

    "The University of Wisconsin philosopher of biology Elliot Sober quipped in 1984 that when "philosophers say they are writing a paper on 'the structure of evolutionary theory,' they mean that they are writing a paper on the tautology problem." "

    Nelson points out that some don't even try to avoid the issue, but instead try to turn tautology into a virtue, giving arguments under headings such as "Is circularity always a bad thing?".

    Some persist in claiming that this state of affairs still has predictive value. Nelson points out an example that claims in part "Predictions about the outcome of continued DDT use can be made: either all the lineages will become extinct, or some mechanism will arise by which the mortal effects of DDT are avoided" (Naylor and Handford 1985). Nelson then comments:

    "Reasonings of this sort--the lineages will become extinct or they won't become extinct--has led many evolutionary biologists (particularly those who completed their graduate training in the late 1960s and early 1970s) to regard the entire theory of natural selection with open cynicism." He then goes on to give some examples.

    Nelson examines at some length the reformulation of natural selection by Univeristy of California geneticist John Endler in the landmark 1986 treatise Natural Selection in the Wild.

    This is the same work that Dr. Allen MacNeill pointed to with approval (see above). To understand Endler is to understand why MacNeill identifies natural selection as a description of an outcome, not as an engine of evolution.

    Endler succeeds in escaping from the circularity and the tautologies by jettisoning "fitness" and instead defining natural selection as an outcome (just as MacNeill does). In the process it becomes clear that natural selection itself has no creative power or agency at all. Its content can be completely boiled down to the recognition of certain conditions given by Endler:

    "If, within a species or population, the individuals
    a. vary in some attribute or trait q (physiological, morphological, or behavioral)--the condition of variation;
    b. leave different numbers of offspring in consistent relation to the presence or absence of trait q--the condition of selection differences;
    c. transmit the trait q faithfully between parents and offspring--the condition of heredity;
    d. then the frequency of trait q will differ predictably between the population of all parents and the population of all offspring."

    "To say that a new adaptation necessarily arose through natural selection," he [Endler] writes, "is an incomplete description, a tautology, and a misrepresentation of natural selection, adaptation, and evolution"

    Nelson adds "Properly to infer the action of selection, Endler stresses, we must have knowledge of conditions (a), (b), and (c), and these exhaust the content of the principle."

    Nelson also provides other revealing quotes from Endler:
    "...the principle of natural selection "is not an explanation for adaptation," "addresses the problem of the spread of new variants or new adaptations, not their origin," and causes "only frequency changes in the populations." "

    p.s. Nelson also shows how this clarification lands Darwinism in a heap of trouble, because so many Darwinists (he gives several examples) have placed such emphasis on "natural selection" as the great answer needed by Darwinism. However, in the cold light of reality, Darwinism is still lacking an ability to explain the arrival of significant changes. The supposed great savior of "natural selection" does not help that at all.



    Patrick
    Peacocks and Selection

    The old example of sexual selection conceived by Darwin apparently has gotten shot down:

    The feather train on male peacocks is among the most striking and beautiful physical attributes in nature, but it fails to excite, much less interest, females, according to new research.
    ...
    Across the board, the researchers were unable to link the elaborateness of a peacock's train with his mating success. In fact, Takahashi and her team found little train variance among males in the population they studied. They also couldn't detect any link between a particular male's fitness and his train.

    While the report concludes that the elaborateness of the train does not influence mating success, it also appears to say that there is some selective advantage for having trains that can generate more rustling during the shivering display. The bigger the train the more rustling (ie size still matters). Evolution is not uncomfortable with any finding (Dawkins makes precisely this poing in his discussions on 'Zahavi's handicap'. It is precisely because 'anything goes' that evolution lacks the element of falsifiability:

    (Excerpt From My Book The Circular Temple)

    Of course there are those that are severely critical of the claim that Darwinian theory is not falsifiable. The philosopher John Wilkins for example claims that Darwinian theory can and does exclude certain possible outcomes. According to Wilkins, natural selection, “rules out the existence of inefficient organisms when more efficient organisms exist". However Wilkins forgets that even here we do not have an a priori definition of what an efficient or an inefficient organism actually is before observing them in nature. Perhaps not surprisingly, even when there is a clear disadvantage for the possession of a particular adaptation, Darwinists have been able to come up with the final word- an advantage for having such a disadvantage. Amotz Zahavi’s hadicap theory, for example, tells us that for adaptations that seem to be burdensome and dangerous, such as the elaborate feathers of a male peacock, the very demonstration to the opposite sex that the male can carry such a cumbersome adaptation is in itself a display of physical prowess. The handicap is all too evident- such a display is energetically draining as well as outright dangerous (imagine the ease by which a predator can home in on the exuberant peacock). Richard Dawkins has suggested a more general application of Zahavi’s handicap principle, with natural selection favouring skepticism in females to such a degree that males have to display their prowess simply for the sake of demonstrating their prowess

    “The premise of Zahavi’s idea is that natural selection will favor skepticism among females (or among recipients of advertising messages generally). The only way for a male to authenticate his boast of strength…is to prove that it is true by shouldering a truly costly handicap- a handicap that only a genuinely strong male could bear. It may be called the principle of authentication”

    Like most other people, I can admit that salesmen have to be more cunning to convince me of the authenticity of the product that they are trying to sell me and only those that pass the ‘authenticity threshold’ will manage to sell me anything. However, we see in Zahavi’s handicap principle, the potential for misuse since, like in all the illustrations above, it lacks the element of falsifiability. If the outcome were any different- for example, if only peacocks with stubby feathers survived- we could just as easily conclude that natural selection, or sexual selection in this case, had favored stubby feathered varieties. After all, what a handicap it is for a peacock to carry it wondrous feathered display of beauty.



    eric
    Video Illustrates the Amazing Creative Power of Selection

    Patrick: "Dawkins speculated that falling from trees provided the environmental funnel. How many squirrels died jumping out of trees before some of them found out that they were lucky enough to have mutant extra skin along with modifications to the spine and ligaments in order to allow them to glide? How many squirrels have to fall to their deaths for such a change to become fixated in the population? ..."

    Even though Patrick goes on to level some serious criticisms regarding "HOW TO MAKE A FLYING SQUIRREL", that need not be a cause for concern. One only needs to look around at the vast diversity of life to be reassured regarding the true nature of the creative power of natural selection.

    One can also look at the power of selection when it is applied to other species. For example, sometime last Christmas season, I discovered this video that actually provides an insightful look into selection as applied to Rain Deer

    I hope you all have an enjoyable day today!

    ;-)



    Patrick
    ARN Peacock

    ARN picked up on the peacock story:

    http://www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature/2008/04/01/sexual_selection_falsified_in_the_case_o



    eric
    Taking Natural Selection Seriously

    Tongue-in-cheek joking aside, now that April Fools is past, there is a serious point to looking at applying selection to flying reindeer or flying squirrels or peacocks. By an accurate understanding, natural selection has no creative power at all. As Endler indicated, it only explains changes to the frequency of what already exists -- if it applies at all.

    So, applying his observations to the peacock research, the clear indication is that point (b) fails to be supported:

    "If, within a species or population, the individuals
    ...
    b. leave different numbers of offspring in consistent relation to the presence or absence of trait q--the condition of selection differences;
    ..."

    This is exactly what the research failed to find when they looked at the differences in traits for peacock trains. The consequence is that natural selection (as sexual selection) is not operating with regard to traits of peacock trains.

    How many other Darwinian just-so speculations are similarly empty of connection with natural selection?



    Patrick
    Getting Even More Serious

    Fisher’s Fundamental Theorem of Natural Selection: the death sentence for Darwinism

    Sal did oversimplify the topic too much and Bob immediately clarified, but otherwise it "appears" to be a good overview. I'm not sure if Sal is overstating his case. After all, we DO have real cases of natural selection at work (finches, blind cavefish, malaria, etc.).

    Anyway, the major issue is like Eric stated: natural selection is not operating with regard to SOME traits. As in, it's not operating uniformly but with only limited cases.

    The reason I think this is an issue is since natural selection usually relies on environmental factors. While some factors are generalized, some factors must be very specific in order for the funneling effect to work. What if, like with these peacock feathers, the factors are very rare or don't even exist? That means that in order for Darwinism to work not only does CSI have to emerge it must be paired with a rare event that offers selective pressure.

    Let me bring up the flying squirrel again. Since I last wrote about it at OE I had a long conversation with a friend who played as devil's advocate. HOW TO MAKE A FLYING SQUIRREL asserted that JUST small gliding squirrels competing vs large squirrels would enough, but that doesn't make sense...what factor would cause the large squirrels to be dying in large amounts? As in, what factors would be enough for directional selection to work?

    1. My friend posited a forest where a population of squirrels are isolated. This forest has VERY tall trees with very little branches, where a tumble would likely mean death (assuming there's no branches to grab onto on the way down).

    2. We ignored the difficulties of the emergence of variation...we just assumed that a squirrel with fully functional gliding abilities appeared. We also assumed they had somehow become 5-10% of the population, which is very generous. BTW, I don't know what informational content separates a glider from a regular squirrel so I can't say whether this is CSI, so it "might" be within the reach of Darwinian processes.

    3. Squirrels are not stupid. They don't fling themselves to death on a regular basis. So what provides the environmental pressure? My friend posited a fire. The only squirrels who could jump from tree-to-tree fast enough to escape would be the gliding variants.

    4. Well, wouldn't the regular squirrels far enough away from the source of the fire escape as well? My friend posited multiple lightning strikes to start fires all over. But that added difficulty for the gliding squirrels as well. On top of that squirrels living near the edges of the forest would escape. In such a chaotic environment it's impossible to assign values, but for this story (which is all it is) we'll say the population is now half regular and half gliding. As in, 90-95% of the population was eliminated.

    5. The final issue is that these factors are not consistent. Once the fire is gone so goes the positive selective pressure. What's to keep a deleterious mutation from eliminating this trait? In fact, with the forest now supposedly decimated the gliding squirrels might have a disadvantage. Skins flaps are not suited well for clambering through bramble and bush.

    6. Is even this convoluted scenario enough for the trait to fixate?



    oleary's picture
    oleary
    Is she really that smart?

    As I will suggest in a post to Design of Life blog later, the chief difficulty with this Zahavi handicap theory is that it credits the peahen with a degree of sophistication that she is unlikely to have. She is a bird, and not a particularly bright one; she is not a stockbroker picking stocks with an eye to buying low and selling high in a future market.

    One possibility that has occurred to me is that the peacock's tail, like many less elaborate bird displays, simply signals that the cock bird is interested in augmenting his address book. If females are not interested in the proposition at that time, they may ignore the tail display, hard as it is to miss.

    Denyse O'Leary

    --

    Denyse O'Leary is a Toronto-based journalist, author, and blogger. She is co-author with Mario Beauregard of The Spiritual Brain (Harper One 2007) and author of By Design or by Chance? (Augsburg 2004).



    Comment viewing options

    Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.