• They say ID shuns peer review?

    quizzlestick's picture
    quizzlestick

    I was deep in a debate with some moonbat evolutionists the other day, and one of them came up with a point which I couldnt refute: He claimed that there are no peer-reviewed papers which support ID, and furthermore he claimed that ID proponents seek to avoid peer review because they are not confident about their theories.

    Well I told him that he was flat wrong, and that nobody likes a healthy scientific debate more than we do, but even so I could not point to any scientific papers which has been subject to mainstream peer-review - then again I'm no biologist. Can you help me win this debate?

    The guy that I was arguing with claimed that ID people want to circumvent the process of science by getting our science taught in schools before it's generally accepted by the science community. I said that it's not our fault that biology science is 150 years behind the cutting-edge and that sometimes if you know you are right it's much more pragmatic to skip the bureaucracy of peer-review and the absued monolith that is main-stream evolutuionary science.

    My argumet was that if material produces evidence that contradicts known facts (i.e. the Bible), then the evidence or the method must be at fault. That should be evidence enough that any sensible person should reject materialism and seek more a more pragmatic approach.

    How would you improve my argument?

    Thanks



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    Patrick
    A Starting Point

    He claimed that there are no peer-reviewed papers which support ID, and furthermore he claimed that ID proponents seek to avoid peer review because they are not confident about their theories.

    http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2640

    That's a starting point.

    I've never heard anyone talking about purposely "avoiding" peer review. What I have heard is of Darwinists within the system arbitrarily rejecting papers due to a connection to ID and not because a lack of quality or evidence. And of course there is the persecution that occurs, such as with Sternberg:

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/archives/1864

    http://www.rsternberg.net/index.htm

    The guy that I was arguing with claimed that ID people want to circumvent the process of science by getting our science taught in schools before it's generally accepted by the science community.

    Read this:

    http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php#questionsAboutScienceEducationPolicy

    Even though that is Discovery's stance the US school system is set up where local school boards have control over their curriculum. Even if ID theorists disagree with the proposed content people are free to implement whatever they want...just beware of the ACLU.

    If your opponent tries to make the asinine argument that ID proponents are trying to force ID onto others using the court system just ask this: name the case where the ID proponents are NOT the defendants. It's the Darwinists using the courts to force Darwinism onto people, not the other way around.



    littlejon
    Your point is excellent. If

    Your point is excellent. If any scientific theory entails, for example, that humans & chimps share an ancestor it cannot be true, for the conclusion must be false. "But my brother Esau is an hairy man, but I am a smooth man". My only worry is what other known facts do we have as well as the Bible? I would say the Koran is literally true as well, so we can reject materialism twice over



    Patrick
    No sarcasm, please. :p

    No sarcasm, please. :p

    Oh, and I don't mind people discussing particular implications of ID but there isn't a reason to attack particular religious beliefs (yes, I'm pretty hypocritical when it comes to certain variants of atheism).



    WinglesS
    The problem is that science

    The problem is that science currently has an alliance with the philosophy of naturalism. (nature is all there is) This makes them accept ideas like evolution even though it generally indemonstrable and offers no real predictions on the future of life on earth, while at the same time rejecting alternative intelligent explanations. (because nature is stupid)

    Evolution is a subjective interpretation of history - things happened this way because they did, no matter how counter factual it seems. Some of the funniest evolutionary explanations I've seen was one on why humans evolved without hair - because women preferred men with less hair. (I wonder what happened to the hypothetical cave men who clubbed women and raped them.)

    ID generally doesn't want ID to be taught in schools, but they want students to know that evolution isn't a fact and shouldn't be taught as one.



    hblavatsky's picture
    hblavatsky
    Evolution lacks a moral aspect

    I've seen was one on why humans evolved without hair - because women preferred men with less hair.

    Preposterous - next thing they will argue that the peacock's display of feathers came about as a result of pea-hens prefering mates with attractive plumage. It's obvious circular reasoning. It makes far more sense to assume that both human females and pea-hens were programmed by an Intelligent Designer or perhaps a divine creator with a set of preferences.

    In the case of humans I believe that we are in some way created in the form of the intelligent designer and that our preferences give us a clue as to what form that designer may take, this intelligent designer our original creator must have the most ideal of forms.

    But please do not take my words on face value, check out what the evolutionists have to say:

    Pagel and Bodmer argue that parasites exert those selective forces. Mammalian fur is an ideal habitat for fleas, ticks and lice, which drain host resources and spread disease. But, for a mammal to rid itself of its protective covering and its unwanted passengers, it must devise a better way of regulating body temperature. And that, say the two scientists, is just what humans did when they harnessed fire and started wearing clothes, which, unlike fur, can be changed and laundered, making them far less parasite-friendly.

    One of the most attractive features of the parasite-reduction hypothesis is its testability. Racial differences in body hair, for example, are expected to reflect geographical variations in parasite prevalence. But parasite reduction via technological innovation is only half the story, say Pagel and Bodmer. They point to the plethora of products, such as razors/waxes/lotions/electrodes that are used for shaving / plucking / bleaching / dissolving / electrolyzing hair from our eyebrows / legs / chests / bikini lines/backs as evidence that Darwin's sexual selection theory was on target. "We humans don't seem to like hair very much," says Pagel. ( The Scientist )

    So the evolutionists seem to think that the reason we lack fur is that there was no selective pressure to keep fur - mankind evolved a better way of keeping warm.

    This of course is a truly preposterous idea: We know that evolution (if it did exist) would take a very long time - mankind has only existed for approximately 6000 years, and would not have had time to evolve such a trait. And where do the evolutionists propose that mankind learnt the knowledge of how to hunt and skin animals?

    Last time I looked they deny the story of the Garden of Eden which is the only credible explanation for the origin of Man's intelligence that would be required for the evolution they propose to have occurred.

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    Helena Petrovna Blavatsky



    kpritc01's picture
    kpritc01
    ID Research Papers and Peer Review

    Getting peer-review can be a tough nut to crack for the ID and Creation researchers. Most of their work is rejected out of hand in the first stage without so much as a thank you. To get around that, at least two other research publications have been formed. Origins & Design is one (you can get copies of papers from www.arn.org), and CRS Quarterly is the other (www.creationresearch.org). These are peer-reviewed journals, don't let anyone tell you different. If anyone knows of others, please chime in.

    Ken Pritchett
    Physicist-Creationist
    Birmingham, AL
    www.evolutionistsnightmare.com

    --

    Ken Pritchett
    Physicist-Creationist
    Birmingham, AL
    www.evolutionistsnightmare.com



    terryf
    If anyone knows of others,

    If anyone knows of others, please chime in.

    Well, there is Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design at http://www.iscid.org/pcid.php. Although, it does appear to be on hiatus.

    I think a more useful tactic for the ID movement would be to publish a list of ID papers submitted to mainstream journals that were rejected. As collegial as the ID community is, surely such a list must exist informally. Why not put it out there for the public to see? As interesting as Expelled may be, it will ultimately be seen as an advocacy piece, only dissimilar from Michael Moore's work by the starting perspective. If it comes down to the science, show the public the reems of papers that have been rejected by the big biology journals.



    Domoman
    Well, there's always the

    Well, there's always the article by Stephen C. Meyer that was put into a peer-reviewed journal known as the Proceedings. The man who approved of the essay being put into the journal was all but fired, and eventually let go, because he allowed an article supporting Intelligent Design to be put in. What happened to academic freedom? Perhaps this is why less ID articles are put into peer-reviewed journals: because those who allow it may get fired. Unfortunate really, and completely unfair. How can a better theory like Intelligent Design conquer over dogmatic Darwinism if this happens?

    Here's a link to the essay.
    http://www.discovery.org/a/2177



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